Kotlin wins here and it is unlikely to change. I'm focused on Swift/Kotlin for the next decade. Do you have any examples to which you can link? Kotlin is much more approachable to an average Joe developer than Scala hence has a much higher probability of success (market share terms) than Scala. Props to them. It may be hard to develop if it does not have good fundamentals, which there are arguments for in this thread and in links elsewhere that it may well not have. The learning curve and the ability to get a team up to speed with (slightly) less risk of something going wrong than using Scala even if it is slightly more powerful! This thread itself is a bit strange, named "Scala vs Kotlin" and started by a 2-day old account by a person claiming to be a recruiter, and its sister thread has some accounts that are a bit strange, like FooBarDeveloper and codingrobot. Scala was designed in an more academic environment. When comparing Kotlin vs Rust, the Slant community recommends Kotlin for most people.In the question“What is the best programming language to learn first?”Kotlin is ranked 10th while Rust is ranked 16th. Wrap It Up. Everyone was happy to make the switch. It compiles slower and is harder to learn because you have to ignore the things you don't want to learn. I've been working in Scala for 6-7 years now; I'd consider a job in Haskell and would actively seek out one in Idris if anyone's using that yet. Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. The most important reason people chose Kotlin is: The language isn't the worst - it has some generically sensible design and one genuinely innovative feature (delegation) - but it's uninspired, and its approach to null is bad by today's standards and will be awful in 5-10 years. You can play with it by typing one-line expressions and observing the results. Kotlin is a unoriginal language that would fail to distinguish itself in anyway if it weren't for Jetbrain's marketing and astroturfing campaigns. Thanks! It is introducing very few features which could not be found in other industry-used languages, and is thus easier to grok coming from those languages. Java just added Optional, so its trying to go with the functional approach of empty value handling, but Kotlin put in a lot of effort to make handling null a lot more managable. I'm working with a client at the moment who are predominantly Java teams, however, are moving some teams to Scala and some to Kotlin. I think, one can not say that Scala is better than Kotlin or vice versa. But you can also rely on it for large mission critical systems, as many companies, including Twitter, LinkedIn, or Intel do. You are trying to have a meal. Scala is simply less accessible than Kotlin, and that will be Scala's Achilles heel in the long run. Kotlin is a better Java. Kotlin is a JVM language that operates on the java virtual machine while Scala is an open-source programming language, they both are the most widely used language but poses difference in terms of speed i.e. Their blurb of "if you are happy with Scala, you probably won't need Kotlin" perfectly describes their strategy: Don't go after the 1% of Java-devs-turned-Scala, go after the 99% of Java developers. Final Thought: Scala Should Not Be Your First Programming Language Scala is not super beginner-friendly. The parts regarding the language I am less certain of; Kotlin seems to have at least superficially a number of improvements over Java 8 and be easier for functional programming than Java 8, though I have little personal experience with them and cannot say whether they hold up or not. Props to them. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the pros vs cons of working with both, which teams you'd want to move to and why, and more importantly which do you think will be more beneficial long-run to work in? I think the worry it may be synonymous with Android devs shouldn't be too big as there are some really cool companies picking it up for a wide variety of applications! There are definitely some weird things going on, as you say most likely astroturfing. But I think only time and practical experience will really tell. Scala is an acronym for “Scalable Language”. And that's a huge win for me. To start with Kotlin a good understanding of Java is a must.. Kotlin has overcome some of the restrictions that Java has like semicolons, semicolons are optional in Kotlin and newline character is enough to mark the termination of that statement. Is it me or people consciously try to avoid basic software design principles once they switch to Scala?! What I wrote at first was. It’s recently gotten a big boost from Google, which has declared it a first-class language for Android development. Kotlin definitely. A lot of the other discussion in that thread seems much more sincere and reasonable, and make good arguments. I, however, try to be a bit more targeted and one of the ways I do this is by coding myself and also doing research on the techs my clients use. Kotlin is a better Java. Kotlin on the other hand, is trying to replace Java. Meanwhile, being an outstanding technology, Scala has its set of advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I would use Kotlin as a replacement to Java and keep learning Scala- use the swiss army knife only when needed. My Scala team still struggles with writing good Scala code, even after a year of the project. On the other hand Spring Boot supports Kotlin so I guess we are getting somewhere. Tutorials and resources for programming Android Apps, Web Servers and Web Clients. Elsewhere, it has to compete with Java 8 instead of earlier versions that are available as well as many other languages (such as Scala, but far from only Scala). Kotlin has been designed and built by developers who have an industrial background and not an academic one. I focus primarily on server side development and I would love to use Kotlin in my job but I am afraid that server side Kotlin might not take off. Having said, you must have concluded, Kotlin and Scala are in a tug of war. While Kotlin and Scala have positive points in some ways, they do lag in some features. A common complaint with Scala is slow compilation time, and Kotlin offers compile speeds comparable to Java. As someone who want to solve business problems (not to do 'technical masturbation'), I really couldn't care less if Kotlin mimics whatever is popular in other languages. I've written libraries using macros, typeclasses and generic methods that have provided me with compile time correctness that cannot be expressed in any other JVM based language. Android Language. Linux is a much better operating system than Windows. If some features of Java constantly annoy you, you’ll find things to like in both languages. Thanks for the help though! Unlike Java, Kotlin has a more expressive syntax like python. Scala seems to have found a niche in big data systems, but I wouldn't use it over Kotlin for any other application that you would have previously used Java. Do you not think it will have a pickup in the android market then? Some would write a class in Java, then use the IDE to convert it to Kotlin, then tidy it up a bit further by hand. Even from a non fan boy perspective, this seems true. Scala was designed in an more academic environment. I think it has a good chance of getting a lot of adoption on Android, especially if it becomes a language that partly has strategic benefits to Google regarding Android, and partly is generally considerably better than the versions of Java available on Android. Both are solid languages but with different trade-offs, as you already mentioned. People are seriously underestimating how much tooling and user (i.e. Is Scala a much more powerful tool than Kotlin ? Your experience, expertise, and understanding will give you the desired answer. Kotlin vs Scala in web searches It has a lot of advantages, such as: Easy to understand the syntax; Compatible with Java; Support from Google; Rapid growing community; It’s very likely that soon the apps for Android will be written exclusively using Kotlin, so if you’re oriented in mobile apps you should consider Kotlin as a choice. Kotlin/JS Overview. Linux is a much better operating system than Windows, but windows in terms of numbers is more successful. It was never a goal, and thus it never failed in that regard. Press J to jump to the feed. Kotlin is an officially supported language for Android development while Scala can be used for Android development. And that's a huge win for me. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't done it before. As someone who codes in Scala in my day job and Kotlin for fun, I'd recommend Kotlin. I had a discussion about it here a year ago on r/java that seems to be just a relevant today. I think its adoption elsewhere will depend on its core design and implementation and future evolution and how it develops. Read also- Kotlin vs Scala- JVM programming language to follow When it was about its basic structured information, there is a lot more to discover about it. (Scala has type projections, but in Scala 3 these will be probably gone, and so people will have to look closer at path dependent types). It was an evolutionary language, rather than a revolutionary one. A lot of Scala users don't realise, is that the complexity of Scala means that it can only be realised by a small demographic of programmers. Kotlin takes less time in the compilation as compared to Scala and has fewer community groups for support, Scala supports for pattern matching and macros whereas these features are not available in Kotlin … Cookies help us deliver our Services. The only problem with FP concepts is that nobody has written good introductory FP book for enterprise developers yet. Ease of use and learning curve are two very important factors. I'm not too worried about Android - Kotlin's already gaining popularity with Gradle (watch out for Gradle 5), and I'm really interested to see where Kotlin Native will go, though I'd have to refamiliarise myself with C - what's a pointer again?? Press question mark to learn the rest of the keyboard shortcuts. Kotlin Vs. Scala: The Comparison. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. ” Kotlin is ranked 4th while Scala.js is ranked 14th. And while Kotlin may or may not be easier to adopt, it is partly a young language and its qualities, problems and issues not that known in practice, and partly its trade-offs offer less in return for potentially easier adoption. Especially the point regarding Google endorsing Kotlin for Android. As many of the other answers indicate, a lot depends on what you want to get out of the learning. The current implementation of Kotlin/JS targets ES5. Distinguishing Kotlin vs. Scala Slant.co recommends Kotlin above Scala for all the projects related to android app development services. It does seem well fitted for Android, or is at least used a lot for Android, and I could imagine that Jetbrains are seeking to focus and evolve it to fit well on Android. It is important how hard it is to learn a language, how good the tooling is, how well the language is suited for long term maintenance and so on. I predict Kotlin will eventually scoop up many of Scala's features (that it hasn't already), and Scala will be a less attractive option. :D. Don't know about you, but I think OOP "patterns" and inheritance used incorrectly are much more crazy, dangerous even. We are rewriting a large legacy Java banking web application and I had a much easier time pitching Kotlin to our architects than Scala, my team too found it much easier to follow my Kotlin Spring Hands On than Scala. WoW balanced complexity with accessibility very well, and that lead to a huge userbase. I'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills your inbox. Scala empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves. Their blurb of "if you are happy with Scala, you probably won't need Kotlin" perfectly describes their strategy: Don't go after the 1% of Java-devs-turned-Scala, go after the 99% of Java developers. I am on the same boat. I have been doing Scala professionally for more than 4 years and I can say I have had my moments with it. There's no question on Java VS Kotlin; use Kotlin. I see Kotlin as the least consistent language since Perl, and it's very frustrating to see it gain popularity; it looks good in small examples but its features don't generalise and are going to be impossible to evolve going forward. Languages include TypeScript, Kotlin, Dart, Go and many more! As such, it tries to solve issues mostly found in industrial settings. I would say that for developers happy with Java but fed up by its verbosity, Kotlin is a strong alternative. We have chosen Kotlin for this rewrite and couple of other projects. As a result, the debate ‘Kotlin versus Scala’ has no end. Source. Cookies help us deliver our Services. Kotlin is officially launched for Android development by Google. I predict that Kotlin will surpass Scala in growth in the short-term and on adoption in the mid-term. The most important reason people chose Kotlin is: Kotlin came out as the second most preferred Android programming language in a survey conducted by Stack Overflow which involved over 100,000 developers. Kotlin was built with industry engineering in mind. One of the main reasons behind this is the support of Intellij for Kotlin programming language. The recommended way to use Kotlin/JS is via the kotlin.js and kotlin.multiplatform Gradle plugins. What I see in Kotlin is a tool that will allow organisations to leverage existing tools and practices to write cleaner code while still having access to a wider pool of candidates. They had a plan and executed it flawlessly. Does Kotlin have any of these? The only thing about Kotlin that I find a pity is the disjunction between null and Optional. Kotlin/JS provides the ability to transpile your Kotlin code, the Kotlin standard library, and any compatible dependencies to JavaScript. Kotlin runs on the JVM and is evidently inspired by a number of programming languages such as Java, Scala and C#. Plus Kotlin is much easier to pick up and … At this stage, it makes sense to talk about which language to choose. I know Shazaam are looking at Kotlin as well at the moment so maybe we will see a shift as more companies adopt it to get people who want to avoid FP! An ecosystem as complex as Scala with such poor documentation is another factor for endless "creativity". Java isn’t just a language; it’s an ecosystem. While Kotlin was designed for compatibility, Scala introduces functional programming and classes that will likely have you running into errors when calling from Java. But, better and success are not always directly co-related. :P. Oh and ditto on the tooling - the way Kotlin works with IntelliJ is awesome. Uh, what is wrong with Kotlin's approach to null? Difference Between kotlin and Scala. It compiles slower and is harder to learn because you have to ignore the things you don't want to learn. I believe the IntelliJ tooling is what made the learning curve so easy. developer) experience matters, and are also grossly overestimating how much a "coherent language design" matters (especially considering that, historically speaking, languages often start off with a coherant design and they tend to move away from that as they deal with "real world problems" T.M., languages like PHP are the exception in this regard), New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast, Press J to jump to the feed. Type classes, enabled by implicits, are a quite simple concept actually. Java is the new Objective-C. Definitely yes. Easy to Learn. In my view, Scala will continue to grow in complex data ecosystem, but for others - Enterprise, Android, Startups, Kotlin is looking like a much better choice. When comparing Scala.js vs Kotlin, the Slant community recommends Kotlin for most people. And now with Google officially embracing Kotlin, it's a pretty big deal. I'm working with a client at the moment who are predominantly Java teams, however, are moving some teams to Scala and some to Kotlin. You can write code for the JVM without writing any Java. Scala vs Kotlin: Practical Considerations for the Pragmatic Programmer. Kotlin was built with industry engineering in mind. (Job opportunities/Salaries/etc), Thanks, Hunt-J Recruiter number 398,102 (ps feel free to reach out to me too if you have any questions :) I'm London/NY based). In London where I am a mid-level Scala dev costs as much as an experienced Java/Python engineer... That's after you spend months trying to hire that Scala dev. It's a great language for any JVM platform. It makes you write a lot of boilerplate code. Jetbrains IDE tooling will also drive that higher. They had a plan and executed it flawlessly. Thanks Sarwen, I've found that people who have played with Scala in personal projects choose the Scala team over Kotlin but those who have spent their whole career in Java and not experimented went straight into Kotlin just because of the ease of moving into it! There are some concerns in Scala community surrounding the introduction of Kotlin.. This means that Scala grows with you. Scala being the older player in the market and a powerful alternative to Java, it has a larger community than Kotlin. Spark and Kafka. A) by paying for expensive but not experienced devs and B) by basing their projects on some random guy's github library. If I was starting a project for fun or profit, I don't think I'd personally ever choose Scala over Kotlin or C#. Think of all the MMORPGs that came before World of Warcraft. (Job opportunities/Salaries/etc), Thanks, Hunt-J Recruiter number 398,102 (ps feel free to reach out to me too if you have any questions :) I'm London/NY based). Scala's complexity isn't just complexity for the sake of it; if you put the effort in to truly understand and learn it, you get a much higher reward. I don't think anyone on the team is sad to have left Java though! Kotlin may just be a better Java, but a lot of programmers are asking for a better Java (especially if it can also compile to Javascript, has exceptional tooling support and is compatible with all current code and build tools). I worked with a team that transitioned from Java 7 to Kotlin 1.0 for building web services with Spring Boot. New comments cannot be posted and votes cannot be cast. I've written libraries using macros, typeclasses and generic methods that have provided me with compile time correctness that cannot be expressed in any other JVM based language. This gives you the option of using a more modern language. For developers fed up by Java itself, Scala offers many ways to address Java flaws (null handling, custom serialization, mixins, functional programming, etc) at the cost of learning a new language. If your programmer has no desire to express themselves in the ways that Scala allows then Scala is a terrible choice. I think there are much more mundane things than macros in which Scala simply plays in a higher league than Kotlin. Kotlin is fully interoperable with the Java programming language. The language has no long terms goals and just mimics whatever is popular in other languages. Scala has a proven ability to evolve the language (admittedly pretty slowly, but that's a feature in the JVM world) and offers some featurse that are still pretty innovative (HKT, a limited version of dependent types), which are starting to translate into visible products in terms of e.g. Kotlin wins here and it is unlikely to change. I predict Kotlin 2.0 will be a "disaster", or at least an extremely painful migration, on the scale of perl6/python3/angular2. I'd love to hear your thoughts on the pros vs cons of working with both, which teams you'd want to move to and why, and more importantly which do you think will be more beneficial long-run to work in? Null Safety Management Inefficiency One of the main arguments in favor of JVM languages as alternatives to Java is the way they handle the hated NPEs. Jetbrains IDE tooling will also drive that higher. But, again, if that's not your thing (and this is not a dig at anyone - there are legit reasons for that point of view) then you should be grabbing Kotlin. I think that's what people are liking about Kotlin. With that said, there are things you simply can't do with Java or Kotlin. How about path dependent types? I predict in five years 90% of Android apps will be developed in Kotlin. Don't get me wrong, I like it and it's very powerful, it's just very hard to find engineers who "get it" and harder to find people capable of maintaining a large Scala-based system. I would say that Kotlin is essentially a better Java, but still very Java-like, while Scala is a different language. Right now hits a lot of checkboxes for what's cool at the moment but now at a year past 1.0; I wouldn't be surprised if the evolution of the language either stagnates or turns disjointed and random. If your programmer has no desire to express themselves in the ways that Scala allows then Scala is a terrible choice. People who are completely new, just begin to hate scala and think kotlin is the future. Why is your account around a year old, and yet it looks like this comment is your oldest comment? To some, Scala feels like a scripting language. For example, the Kotlin type system helps developers avoid null pointer exceptions. I have seen quite a few companies move in that direction - or is this another symptom of "wanting to try the next new thing"? Unlike my expectation, a in b .. c converted to a <= b && b <= c, it seems it is not implemented as what I said. By using our Services or clicking I agree, you agree to our use of cookies. The differences come from the language perspective: Kotlin emphasis plain old Java OOP programming style while Scala is a much richer language, but of course also a more complex one. In the question“What are the best languages that compile to JavaScript? Kotlin is easier to learn than Scala. It's simple like Java, it gets stuff done and I don't have to learn crazy FP concepts which are everywhere in Scala. I love Kotlin. Thanks for the tip :). Kotlin is a knife, Scala is a swiss army knife. Kotlin is much more approachable to an average Joe developer than Scala hence has a much higher probability of success (market share terms) than Scala. Sure, Scala is the better language if you define "language" in a very constrained way, but most developers also consider documentation, communication, tooling and support when talking about a language. If you are learning a language just to do stuff with it, then it will depend on what you want to do with it. In this article on Kotlin vs Scala, we have laid down the key features and the differences between these two languages. Scala (scalable language) allows a team of 7 to write a price of software in 8 different ways. I'm Joe, one of those terrible recruiter folk who fills your inbox. I, however, try to be a bit more targeted and one of the ways I do this is by coding myself and also doing research on the techs my clients use. Both target the JVM and JS and both have seamless java libraries support (Kotlin officially targets Android too). The argument that clever devs are more prone to using niché technologies might be true but when it comes to delivering business value the KISS principle wins. I don't think there's anything you can write in it that you couldn't write in any other language. That it's not an algebraic data type enforced by the compiler? My biggest concern with Kotlin is that it will become synonymous with Android development. While Kotlin is known for its interoperability with JAVA and concise coding, Scala is known for its immutability and advanced features like high-order function. Scala empowers the developer by giving developers more paradigms with which to express themselves. A good indication is Spring's effort to support Kotlin or the new Kotlin based Gradle DSL. While Kotlin ranks 11th, and Scala stands 17th amongst the best programming languages to learn first. Some of the shortcomings of Java are obvious. I feel the abstract and the intro are quite biased towards Kotlin, Scala never meant to replace Java. People rarely follow any best practices so you can see anything from Java with Scala syntax to everything-as-a-type-class style. Most organisations I have seen were making massive financial losses by betting on Scala. Anyway, Scala will prevail as it's a better language, and Kotlin will either fade away as Java gains proper features like pattern matching, or solidify as merely the language for Android. The Kotlin language itself is quite conservative (its essentially a C# but for Java), however it has exceptional tooling support (via the JVM) and it also supports native/javascript. Kotlin 2.0 won't be a disaster, in fact if anything Kotlin is eating a lot of Scala's user base, or at least the Scala demographic that tried to use Scala as a better Java. Both Kotlin and Scala runs on the JVM and compare themselves to Java. This begs the question: is there anything wrong with Java?Well, certainly Java did a lot of things right. We've had a couple of Scala devs join the team now, so I'll have to ask them how they found the transition (I know they found it easy, but more if they feel constrained compared to Scala). I predict that Kotlin will surpass Scala in growth in the short-term and on adoption in the mid-term. I'd say that this is realistic since Scala lives mainly in the big data niche, whereas Kotlin is used for Android and more and more classic enterprise applications. Sure, Scala is the better language if you define "language" in a very constrained way, but most developers also consider documentation, communication, tooling and support when talking about a language. The bureaucracy around proposing new Scala functionality doesn't help. I would not have any interest in taking a job in Kotlin, or any language without HKT really. Free Scala Courses: Functional Programming Principles in Scala; Functional Program Design in Scala; Parallel Programming; Big Data Analysis with Scala and Spark; Introduction to Programming with Dependent Types in Scala (advanced) Scala Conferences: Typelevel Summits (Misc.) Here you can do Python vs. Scala or Scala vs. Java. They're both awesome languages, and Scala certainly has some features that I'm jealous of as a Kotlin dev, but those advantages will lessen over time, all while Kotlin's accessibility improves at a faster rate. I had never thought of them like that. Discussion about Kotlin, a statically typed programming language for the JVM, Android, JavaScript, and native. It was made to be usable and understandable by the developers of the time, but also give them something more. Hi Mike!

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